wyld_dandelyon: (Polychrome Wizard)
[personal profile] wyld_dandelyon
It was at a fannish gathering--at my house, I think--that I first heard the term "Mary Sue". Some large person with a beard was using it to put down the work of a female writer. I protested. I didn't see anything wrong with the very competent female character he was taking exception to.

Oh no, he said, it's not because she's female, it's because the author has inserted an unrealistically idealized version of herself into the story. It's bad writing, he said. The character isn't interesting and is too perfect and that hurts the story.

Well, ok, I thought, reluctantly. It's kind of like a deus ex-machina critique, but about a character rather than the plot. But it didn't sit well that the critique was given a woman's name, instead of something descriptive of the alleged fault. Why make the critique inherently gendered? Oh, well, I thought, whatever. A name is just a name, and the definition isn't gendered at all.

But over and over, I've heard that particular critique aimed at a woman writer who created a competent woman character. The critic was nearly always male. And the critique was leveled at all very competent female characters, not just the ones with a demonstrable resemblance (beyond gender) to the writer. I have even heard that complaint when the writer wasn't female. The term came, more and more, to be just a generic complaint about very competent women being "unrealistic".

But wait--our genre has a long history of unusually competent protagonists. When the world is at risk and the odds are against you, you need a very competent protagonist. The stories we tell demand one. And we've loved many super-competent characters. No one ever, in my hearing, called Luke Skywalker a "Larry Stu". Or Valentine Michael Smith or Superman or Paul Atreides or Ender Wiggin or Gandalf or James Tiberius Kirk or Dr. Who. In fact, although I am aware of the alternate term to use when applying that critique to male characters, I can't remember ever hearing someone bring that complaint against a male character except in the context of having been asked why it's only women characters who are so labeled.

Now, I certainly have not been a party to all conversations about characters in speculative fiction! But I've been an active party to a lot of them and have overheard or read a lot of critiques of fiction as well. So I think it's safe to say that overwhelmingly the term "Mary Sue" is the term in active use, and that it is exclusively used to belittle and dismiss kick-ass female characters and the female writers who created them. (If the term truly applied to any character, why would someone coin a rhyming term to use when the character is not female?)

The more I think about it, the more I think this isn't due to a change in how the term is used. I believe the term arose out of the unconscious conviction that women are not exceptional. All of the big names in science and politics and engineering (and religion and literature and, well, everything) have been men, right? Certainly that's the impression my textbooks seemed designed to give. The rare woman mentioned was presented as the exception that proved the rule.

But I know better. A lot of women are exceptional. I find more and more of them when I look, both in history and in today's world. Periodically I share a story about one of them on Facebook. I could share a dozen a day and not run out of exceptional women to talk about, if I wanted to post that much. Many of them have had men take the credit for their work, crediting them only with the status of "assistant" and characterizing their work as merely "clerical" or "supportive". Other women were given credit at the time, but quietly and briefly, their presence glossed over as soon as practicable. Others, like Joan of Arc, were discredited or even punished for daring to surpass the roles approved for women. But one way or another, exceptional women have been--and are too often still being--consistently and systematically belittled and dismissed.

I look at all those male heroes in fiction and in history--men who are loved and admired and celebrated. Little boys are encouraged to take them as role models and to attempt to emulate them. Never mind that they are arguably aspiring to more than they will ever achieve, they are still encouraged to dream and to work hard and to excel. They and their heroes are not belittled and dismissed; instead they are praised.

The contrast is pretty obvious.

It's time for us to discard the term "Mary Sue". It carries with it a heavy baggage of sexism, regardless of what an individual critic means to convey by it. If there is a valid critique about authorial insertion or poor characterization, then let's use non-gendered terms for those things.

And above all, let's stop complaining every time a female character is exceptional in a genre which has always focused on heroes. Instead, let's embrace and celebrate all of our heroes, regardless of the gender of the author, the character, or the reader.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 07:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tuftears.livejournal.com
Personally I look at it this way: what are the threat levels the characters are fighting? Mary Sue/Marty Sue are what happen when the characters are *too* competent for the enemies to matter. Maybe they have psychic powers, maybe the enemies are incredibly stupid, whatever the case, it just drains away all drama when every conflict is resolved as soon as it happens.

Some people might think of Honor Harrington as a Mary Sue, but despite her 'ubercompetence' and the presence of a Special Psychic Friend (treecat), for most of her books she has *extreme opposition*. She's outnumbered, her ships are smaller than the enemies', she'd better be bringing something special to the table to be able to handle it.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
I certainly agree that a story is poorly written when the protagonist is not meaningfully challenged by the threats in the story. Absolutely. It's hard to care if fixing things is too easy.

But we can say that without using a gendered phrase that has repeatedly been used to attack and dismiss female characters that are appropriately skilled for the challenges they must overcome.

I think that the term Mary Sue is inherently sexist by etymology and also that it has been repeatedly used to denigrate female writers and female characters when similar male characters written by male authors are praised.

That is not the _only_ way the term has been used, of course, but it has been used that way so often that I think we should stop using it completely. Even if you don't intend the term to be sexist, you can't take away the sexist associations that the term has from the way many other people have used it. To use an analogy, I think using "Mary Sue" and expecting people to not hear the sexism in the term is like using "gay" anywhere but in a traditional Christmas carol and hoping people won't think "homosexual."

(edited--dang typos!)
Edited Date: 2016-01-21 07:53 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tuftears.livejournal.com
True enough. I don't myself favor the term 'Mary Sue', I prefer 'OP' or "overpowered".

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
"Ovepowered" or "Overpowered Protagonist" is so much more to the point, and doesn't require explanation. It's perfect.

It doesn't include the idea of author insertion or author daydream, but really, I'm not so sure it's inherently bad for an author to start with a daydream. Where an author starts is really beside the point. What matters is the story they tell when they're done.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tuftears.livejournal.com
'Tis true, the Mary Sue business does derive partly from authorial self-insertion and that only matters when you're dealing with franchise fic where you're dealing with others' chars. If they're all your chars, who cares if one is a little more you than the others?

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
Oh, but when I was first introduced to the term, that was the strongest objection given. It wasn't about story balance so much as it was, to the gentleman I was talking to, about not being interested in reading about what he felt was a blatantly idealized version of the female writer.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tuftears.livejournal.com
That's sad! (I interpret that as he wasn't interested in reading about/empathizing with female characters period)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 04:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
In retrospect, I agree. Unless, of course, the female characters fit his idea of "feminine" (and probably also "sexy").

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 05:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tuftears.livejournal.com
Maybe as a 'convenient girlfriend' for the 'main character' but as the protagonist? -_-

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 11:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
Well, you know, if she's feminine and sexy and has no boyfriend, a guy could daydream.

It's not a Mary Sue (or Whatever Stew) if you don't write it down, I guess.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 03:28 am (UTC)
mneme: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mneme
The term as originally coined (initially almost entirely used by women, as both fanfic writers and their primary readers were women at the time!) was about a character who has pretty much no purpose in the story except to serve as a vehicle for authorial fantasy--thus she (or he, for a Stu) warps the story around her, despite never having established skills or training can always manage to save the day, has romantic liasons with the main characters, pushing aside anyone they were involved in in canon, etc. It wasn't simply authorial insertion characters (like, you mean, any Heinlein hero ever, particularly the old men?), but ones that were clearly a thin fantasy that had a very limited (possibly singular) audience.

Switching gears, if I had to point out a single character that got thought of as a Gary Stu in commercial fiction, it would have to be Wesley Crusher in Star Trek: TNG -- a character who was a clear special snowflake (a teen where the rest were adults, an untrained tinker while the rest were Starfleet-trained, and only nominally Starfleet), and yet tended to be the viewpoint character and solve the plot in any character he played a significant role in. But frankly, people didn't need to coin (or use) the Stu term to describe what was wrong with Wesley.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 06:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
As to Wesley, there's no evidence that his presence is an authorial insertion that I know of. But certainly there are other ways to describe the problems with the stories where he was inserted as a central character.

Similarly, there are other and better ways to describe any problems one might have with other characters one might label "Mary Sue".

One of the things that this conversation has shown me is that there are a number of things people assume is meant by "Mary Sue" -- and they're not all the same. Authorial insertion, daydream fantasy, aversion to competent female protagonists, slash fantasy, unrealistically perfect character, overpowered protagonist -- there's doubtless more. Even if the phrase hadn't become associated with sexism, that limits the term's usefulness.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hrj.livejournal.com
It's also fascinating to watch the verbal and logical gymnastics required to explain how a Luke Skywalker's talents and abilities make natural sense within the setting but a Rey's don't. I was just watching a gymnastic display of this sort over on another blog and kept thinking, "Do you have any idea what you look like when you do that?"

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
I've gotten to the point where I don't enjoy those calisthenics any more. When I was a kid, I thought video conference by wrist watch (a la Dick Tracy) was total fantasy and equal pay for equal work would be real by the time I finished growing up. Well, you know how that turned out!

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 10:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hrj.livejournal.com
Yeah, absolutely. It's not enjoyable, just fascinating. (I'm still working on the self-restraint not to call people on it.)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 11:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
While it's true that calling them on it is unlikely to change _their_ minds, there's young people lurking and watching. I'd like this crap to change, and that means letting it go unchallenged can lead to more people growing up thinking that way.

But still, we all deserve more from life than fighting sexism and the other isms.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] msstacy13.livejournal.com
FWIW,
when my war correspondent narrator urinated in Hemingway's face,
she squatted down to do it.

Wait, does that make me, as an author,
a pissy cunt?
:)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 06:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
You are a unique snowflake.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-21 10:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] earthspirits.livejournal.com
I weary of seeing the terms "Mary Sue" literally everywhere - applying to all sorts of work, whether they be books, short stories, fan fiction, film, television series, et al. There's also the equally annoying term "Gary Stu" for the male version.

It's time to come up with something more original as to character critique - as these terms have now become ridiculously overused (and tedious), and are outdated (and as you say - sexist). Meh.

That said - I agree that the guy you were talking to was definitely not interested in reading about (or empathizing) with any female character. How can a woman character be "over competent"? Should we be writing about just incompetent women? I think not. Certainly, I can think of hundreds of heroic male characters this critique could perfectly well apply to. But I guess that's where "Gary Stu" comes in - which while I do see this term crop up - it's never as much as the annoying "Mary Sue" rears its head.

As for competent characters of any sort - It's up to the writer to give their characters challenges or other obstacles to overcome that require them to really work towards a successful plot and character resolution - and not just use whatever skills or talents have been assigned to them to overcome things too easily (that would make for pretty boring reading, in my opinion).










Edited Date: 2016-01-21 10:52 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 04:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
You know, I usually focus my thoughts on how to write well, rather than on good and bad critique techniques or the terminology said critique use. For this post, I was focused on that one term, and why I think it is not a valid critique.

Yet so many of the responses diverge back to my primary interest--how to write well! Is that because I (quite on purpose) have so many writers on my friends' list? Or is it because critique of terminology is twee and just too nerdy?

As to "Gary/Larry/Marty Stu", I strongly suspect that the masculine forms were was coined after somebody heard a complaint that this critique was being applied solely to women characters and women writers, and that wasn't fair. Rather than admit to sexism (which is, after all, a Bad Thing), they cast about for a male character they could similarly denigrate. But then--it would be _terrible_ to call some male a "Mary Sue", so they made a masculine version of the term to use instead. In my mind, the fact that people thought it necessary to re-gender the term to apply it to a male character just underscores the sexism. After all, no one talks about female sleuths as the new "Sherry Holmes", they call them "Sherlock" just like a new male sleuth.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
But you know, the whole idea of calling any of Robert Heinlein's female characters a "Mary Sue" just underscores the aspect of the term in its "no woman is that competent and attractive" meaning. Heinlein, for all his flaws, was certainly not a fat, pimply, near-sighted teenage girl.

And I never heard Lazarus Long called a Mary Sue! I'm not doubting that you did, and given the whole twin female clones of Lazarus story line, that does at least come close to that original (i.e. rewrite a person as a smart, sexy female) thing, but in doing so, Heinlein twisted the Mary Sue thing on its head and made it a story about narcissism.

If you are right, and the term is (or was) intended to be limited to wish-fulfillment slash fan fiction, then applying it to people like Rey in the new Star Wars movie is a glaring mis-use of the term as well as sexist.

This perspective just muddies the meaning of the term still more, and adds several connotations to it that are just as problematic as the sexism. I'm not against people writing, enjoying, and sharing slash fan fiction, but it is a different endeavor than writing original characters in mainstream speculative fiction. If it remains acceptable to dismiss any very competent female character with a term that brings to mind wish-fulfillment sex stories, that just plays into the whole false and insulting paradigm that says the primary/best/only purpose for female characters is to be the sex interest of the (male) protagonist(s).

But what prompted me to write this post is that in the circles I frequent (which admittedly does not include slash fan fiction, with or without author-insertion), I do not see the gender factor in how that term is used blurring. I have not recently heard it used for male characters (or, for that matter, agender characters, aliens with different genders, enby characters, gay characters or masculine bi characters). I have overwhelmingly seen "Mary Sue" used to criticize female writers and female characters. Until people started discussing the problems with that term, I had not heard any of the male versions of the term from anyone for well over a decade.

The term "Mary Sue" applied as a criticism of competent original female characters, on the other hand, has spread since I first heard it (which was indeed quite a long time ago).

Clearly, the subset of fans you interact with is different than the ones I interact with, and your experience of the term is different.
Edited Date: 2016-01-22 05:35 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 05:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
Oh, no need to apologize at all! It's been a good discussion.

Another aspect of this is that I haven't heard people dismissing Heinlein's writing or his books because of the assumption that some of his characters are idealized versions of himself. People, especially men, do dismiss women's work as not worth reading with that as the given reason.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
I haven't heard anyone discussing Myste (as a Mary Sue or otherwise, really), but Misty already had a tongue-in-cheek author-insert character in Leslac. No one dismissed her or that character as a Mary Sue that I heard.

In fact, now that I think of it, Misty seems to be in that limbo often afforded female midlist authors--they get some fanfare initially, but not so much thereafter. At least she's still getting books published. I'm glad for that both as a reader and as her friend (though I haven't talked to her in ages).

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
No offense taken! I'm sure she intended people who knew her (or at least of her) to giggle.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-22 11:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
I do appreciate the thoughtful comment.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 03:20 am (UTC)
mneme: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mneme
I've long thought that "Mary Sue" (or Gary Stu, but really, that one only shows up when analyzing MS or, sure, rarely about fanfic) should never be used except when talking about fanfic -- and that even there, it's far better to discuss the actual issues you have, if it's "this character is an authorian insert", say that (not actually a problem unless it's paired with others), etc.

Using it as a code for "this character is more competent, self-reliant, and less flawed than I expect female characters to be" is a good sign that the speaker is simply uncomfortable with female protagonists--and that the problem lies with them, and not the work.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-23 05:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
I agree that author insertion can be done well or poorly, and that I am more and more disliking the idea that that feature, in and of itself, is a valid reason to put down a work of fiction.

After all, in art, a self-portrait is given as much respect as the portrait of somebody else, and it even has something of a special place in portraiture, like getting a window into the artist and zir's thoughts and perceptions that you wouldn't get otherwise.

I am, indeed, objecting to the use of the phrase as a euphemism/literary-sounding substitute for admitting that a person doesn't want to read female protagonists or feels challenged in some way by the mere fictional presentation of a competent woman.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-27 09:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shamshir-tin.livejournal.com
Huh. I've never used the term Larry Stu. I've used the term Mary Sue, but over 90% of the time that has applied to male characters. Time to get to work on a gender-neutral term.

(no subject)

Date: 2016-01-28 03:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com
Another thing that I find very interesting is that different commenters here found the term used with an emphasis on different things, making it an inherently ambiguous term as well as a gendered one. I am very intrigued that you have heard the term Mary Sue applied to mostly male characters, and I wonder which specific critique was indicated?

Perhaps in addition to non-gendered, we ought to find terms that describe or at least intuitively/etymologically link to whatever is being critiqued, so that we don't have to spend a lot of time on definitions to understand what the other person is thinking when they use that term.

Profile

wyld_dandelyon: (Default)
wyld_dandelyon

May 2025

S M T W T F S
     123
45 678 910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
OSZAR »