But you know, the whole idea of calling any of Robert Heinlein's female characters a "Mary Sue" just underscores the aspect of the term in its "no woman is that competent and attractive" meaning. Heinlein, for all his flaws, was certainly not a fat, pimply, near-sighted teenage girl.
And I never heard Lazarus Long called a Mary Sue! I'm not doubting that you did, and given the whole twin female clones of Lazarus story line, that does at least come close to that original (i.e. rewrite a person as a smart, sexy female) thing, but in doing so, Heinlein twisted the Mary Sue thing on its head and made it a story about narcissism.
If you are right, and the term is (or was) intended to be limited to wish-fulfillment slash fan fiction, then applying it to people like Rey in the new Star Wars movie is a glaring mis-use of the term as well as sexist.
This perspective just muddies the meaning of the term still more, and adds several connotations to it that are just as problematic as the sexism. I'm not against people writing, enjoying, and sharing slash fan fiction, but it is a different endeavor than writing original characters in mainstream speculative fiction. If it remains acceptable to dismiss any very competent female character with a term that brings to mind wish-fulfillment sex stories, that just plays into the whole false and insulting paradigm that says the primary/best/only purpose for female characters is to be the sex interest of the (male) protagonist(s).
But what prompted me to write this post is that in the circles I frequent (which admittedly does not include slash fan fiction, with or without author-insertion), I do not see the gender factor in how that term is used blurring. I have not recently heard it used for male characters (or, for that matter, agender characters, aliens with different genders, enby characters, gay characters or masculine bi characters). I have overwhelmingly seen "Mary Sue" used to criticize female writers and female characters. Until people started discussing the problems with that term, I had not heard any of the male versions of the term from anyone for well over a decade.
The term "Mary Sue" applied as a criticism of competent original female characters, on the other hand, has spread since I first heard it (which was indeed quite a long time ago).
Clearly, the subset of fans you interact with is different than the ones I interact with, and your experience of the term is different.
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Date: 2016-01-22 05:32 am (UTC)And I never heard Lazarus Long called a Mary Sue! I'm not doubting that you did, and given the whole twin female clones of Lazarus story line, that does at least come close to that original (i.e. rewrite a person as a smart, sexy female) thing, but in doing so, Heinlein twisted the Mary Sue thing on its head and made it a story about narcissism.
If you are right, and the term is (or was) intended to be limited to wish-fulfillment slash fan fiction, then applying it to people like Rey in the new Star Wars movie is a glaring mis-use of the term as well as sexist.
This perspective just muddies the meaning of the term still more, and adds several connotations to it that are just as problematic as the sexism. I'm not against people writing, enjoying, and sharing slash fan fiction, but it is a different endeavor than writing original characters in mainstream speculative fiction. If it remains acceptable to dismiss any very competent female character with a term that brings to mind wish-fulfillment sex stories, that just plays into the whole false and insulting paradigm that says the primary/best/only purpose for female characters is to be the sex interest of the (male) protagonist(s).
But what prompted me to write this post is that in the circles I frequent (which admittedly does not include slash fan fiction, with or without author-insertion), I do not see the gender factor in how that term is used blurring. I have not recently heard it used for male characters (or, for that matter, agender characters, aliens with different genders, enby characters, gay characters or masculine bi characters). I have overwhelmingly seen "Mary Sue" used to criticize female writers and female characters. Until people started discussing the problems with that term, I had not heard any of the male versions of the term from anyone for well over a decade.
The term "Mary Sue" applied as a criticism of competent original female characters, on the other hand, has spread since I first heard it (which was indeed quite a long time ago).
Clearly, the subset of fans you interact with is different than the ones I interact with, and your experience of the term is different.